Jochen Werne: Felicia, many thanks for the invitation and yeah, my time in a Navy was a very interesting one. I started there was 19 years and coming from the south of Germany, going totally north of Germany, and having grown up there in a little village and now you go to the big world. And this is old say, which says- 'Join the Navy, see the world,' and the Navy promised it and deliver it. So that was quite fascinating. And when you're 19 years old, and you haven't traveled that much in your world in your life, and suddenly you get out there get in an environment, which is completely different to where you grew up. It's a disciplined environment, it's a very clear military environment, and this is something where you learn so much, this is the first thing.
The second thing, I've been a navigator in the Navy. And so bringing ships from A to B, even though you do not have instruments, or they fail or stuff like that, and always have a plan B to go forward and that was a very impressing time for me. And it was probably a time which formed to live in my character and help me also to overcome challenges and overcoming challenges because it was a novel duty.
The novel duty wants to do and watch and you cannot can just sleep every fourth night, one night through; otherwise you every night on watch and then you have to be precise and you're in a very close environment: 220 people on just 80 meters of length, working, living and challenging together. Last but not least, it was not a normal unit. I've been navigate on board of our sail training ship, because the cadets of the German Navy learn sailing on a free mass tall ship, and learned to get along with nature on that. And where better than on a sailing ship, you're going to learn that? And suddenly, you're in this community, this very close community with no private sphere, and you're together with something which is much bigger than you, and this is not the Navy, this is not the armed forces, this is nature. And you suddenly start to have a big respect when you're in the storm, when you're out there, when you're tired. And this is really, really something which touched me and everything else, what I did in the fourth upcoming years then, and helped me a lot after that starting my career also and starting to lead the first small team and then further on all the other teams.
It sounds like an amazing, challenging experience, and I can see how some of those challenges that you had to deal with in the Navy and work with really shaped potentially how you are in your current role at Experian. I want to dive into your recent acquisition, which was made. Could you tell me why was this particular organization chosen? And provide some context such as the number of employees involved, where they were located, and then I'd love to maybe paint the picture on how your working style really influences eventually, how you've been able to onboard this or I guess, acquire and merge this new business.
Jochen Werne (04:46): With pleasure. I think this is a very interesting story and it started prior to me joining Experian in what we should call here to the DACH region. DACH stands for Deutschland (Germany), Austria and Switzerland. So this is the region which I'm heading and where I'm the CEO of Experian, and Experian didn't have a big footprint in this market prior to acquiring from Arvato Bertelsmann, a specially unit which is not has not only been one company, it has been several companies. And these several companies have been acquired by the former company by Bertelsmann, which is a very traditional German publishing house, very successful also over the years. So, when you look at that there are some small medium-sized companies, and we speak about approximately 300 people which were in built into the Bertelsmann unit, and then which went into a joint venture with Experian in March 2020.
And I think if a lot of us remember, March 2020, it was a little bit one of the dark days, which I remember dark months, I know what I planned in these days, and I planned the sailing expedition with friends, and then a virus came and we close the world at least it felt like that, and it's probably one of the worst moments to acquire a company and to integrate that to bring a new culture on board to motivate the people and so on.
So it's no one's fault and no one has chosen the pandemic and to make an acquisition at that time, but may be just see to this other circumstances of that. And the idea was to have big footprint. So as you probably know, in the United States, Experian, well-known for being a credit bureau, you have your scores and your credit score there, you can boost it, you can bring it to a life and so on. And so the idea was also in Germany to buy a credit bureau for CI data plus, we acquired a couple other companies on top of that. And this happened that in this March 2020, we move forward on the topic of integration, so I joined Experian in August 2023. What happened in these days before, we all had a big challenge in integrating not only companies, but in this special case, to integrate something where you cannot travel to redo all your IT infrastructure, to redo your processes, without being physically with someone together- not with the management, not with the people, not with the teams, and so on. And this is for sure a big, big challenge.
Second, the idea was, and this was a correct idea to start with a joint venture because both companies had a lot of things in common and Bertelsmann and Experian had also planned to work together in the future, and therefore the joint venture- 60% of Experian, 40% of Bertelsmann- still, and would have made in a normal circumstance, complete sense in these circumstances, very clear. When you're an employee of a company, you see these changes, you listen to it, you hear the podcasts, you hear the management, announcements, etc. But you don't see anyone, at least not that frequently, as it should be exactly in these moments. So it was done the best way he could be. But as an employee and as a human being, I feel safe in what I already know. And I think this is quite a normal psychological case. And so I stay with one foot still in the old world, even though knowing there's something new to come. And this is probably has probably been one of the big challenges made up by COVID. There was seen and it was checked, what what can we do, how can we evolve this situation? And it became clear also what was planned from the beginning onwards, but in another staging, that Experian needs to have 100% of the company and not a joint venture and need to make them an integration, ideally now under different circumstances with a new management, etc.
So in January 2023, the rest of the 40% were bought by Experian. So it's 100% Experian company, and I started and joined in August 2023. With that said we came together on the first of August, and the first thing we said, 'We have to create some successes together.' This is a nice saying a mentor of mine once told me: 'If you want to know what someone thinks, don't listen to what the person says; look what the person is doing and achieving.' And this is really touching me, and I think this is such a wonderful thing. So it's a little bit like the topic of trust, and it is nothing else than trust. You come into a new company does a new CEO, no one knows you, at least maybe from the press or for something else, but your personal your style, what you do and so on. And they have to trust you and they will give you trust everyone will give you a trust if it's a good company for a certain time, but then you together create what you promised. So on the first of August, when I started at 11:30, I held a speech to all employees, I said, 'Thank you for the welcome.' And I clearly gave a direction, what we want to do and this is with the products and with the people to create first successes, this was the first goal, plus implementing of Gen AI training and all these things. So as you know it, Felicia, where we fall in love, we give immediately trust for a certain time, in all our things, I promise something also in a relationship, and I deliver, this creates trust: 'I promise, I deliver, I promise.' And exactly this is also what we create, and there are great people here, absolutely great people.
But with this new spirit, which we all together had a way to move forward, we created first successes. Success then again brings confidence and suddenly the confidence came, and it was said, 'Well Experian is cool, Experian is good. An experience totally different to what we had in the old days.
Experian is a company with 20,000 people more than 20,000 if just one thing in mind: how do we make out of data something that makes sense? decisions, etc, etc. And everyone is all day thinking about that how to make life better for people with data, etc. And suddenly, with this big footprint, the people understood and touched it, and got success with this new way forward. And it was great to see, and I'm very proud of everyone, because really, that was something where you had to change yourself, and everyone being a longtime with the old company, which was a good one, no doubt about that. But a different one had to change the style of work. And everyone who did it and achieved success, got this confidence.
And where we are today, we're in a total different setup; we changed the go-to-market unit, we changed the operational units, and we changed the way how we work together. And that created a teamwork. We are not at the end. So it's not even a year that we worked together in the circumstance, we had a lot of changes in there, we had to change, but we are on a very good track.
Tell me more about what are the one or two major changes you had to make? I mean, I can only imagine that in any merger or acquisition, it's challenging to get culture in sync. I would imagine this is one of the biggest challenges, but what were those challenges? What did they look like for you? Was it culture integration? Was it communication? Was it vision getting everyone aligned on vision? Was it just location was where would you even start? Where did you start?
Jochen Werne: Let's start with awareness. I think this is one of the most important things for sure. Know the quote of Peter Drucker "Culture eats strategy for breakfast."
Felicia Shakiba: Yes, I'm familiar. A great quote.
Jochen Werne (13:00): It is a great quote and if you do not inhalade this quote, and make it your daily force and I think I don't- someone doesn't understand it and so on and so on and you go with the 'Oh, we are created, we do it like we do it in America or in the US, like we do it in Brazil, like we do it in the UK,' it will not work. You have to accept and to understand what was the mindset of the team you're working with. And also there we all individuals; this is important to understand and every single mindset is different. And if you go there, you have to start to create awareness of what is the new and then you can speak about it, you can communicate which is very important. You cannot stop communicating ideally in person and not via teams or something like that, but use every mean, you have to communicate changes you want to make and successes you had together with the team because you never do it alone.
As a CEO, you have great people around you, and your leadership team, and on every position there and then you have to change with this awareness, somehow the mindset, and very clear after a long time of COVID, people have changed themselves. And you have to get this feeling back you have to get this not only a feeling back the way of working back because COVID changed, I think, not only here, but in many, many companies a lot and Experian did a great job in COVID globally. So they kept the people, they didn't do harsh measures as often as it was prior to my time and gave this confidence that you're here in a very safe and very good environment and place.
The second thing that we had to do is clearly changing our mindset, how we approach the market, how we approach the market is also something, how are you seen in the market. The brand Experian in the German market, for example, hasn't been very established because we weren't active in the market in this big manner as we are now. And so we have to create brand awareness on that. Bertelsmann is a very well-known, very traditional, very old family owned business very well-known, but Experian was today as of today, so we saw it last week, when a big conference invited SP data specialists sitting together with the whole parliament, and the ministers and the CEOs of the DACHs, and NASDAQ companies here in Germany. And we were in the forefront where we belong to, and this is clearly something people see and helps to get more confidence, broader shoulders, and to go out and show how we can make the difference.
And this making the difference is something you have to live: you cannot put in a PowerPoint presentation. Because when you're in front of the client, in front of anyone else, you are the only one and you're alone there. And then it will shows: Have you inhalade it? Have you changed yourself? Or you still go in there and say: 'We are one of the niche players, we have also right to say something, please?' That's not the way. Because if you look at our data, as if look at our scores, if you look at our products, which are top-notch globally, this is a total different way. But it needs and so I come back to the topic, it needs to change of the mindset. And the change of the mindset is not only happening in the mind, it's happening in the mind with the results you really produce, then you have a real mindset shift.
And so the mindset shift is coming from what do you say, the behaviors of leadership, what you do, and what you stand for?
Jochen Werne: Correct from the leadership, and it has to start from leadership and as it means walk the talk. So if you're just come from the Navy times, give orders, and hope that someone obeys the orders, you're in the wrong place here in a company where individuals work together and bring things forward. The Navy is one piece; it is very good for discipline is very good for organization, it's very good regulated, for everything of that it is not for innovative minds. And this is probably also of two points why I left the Navy, even though saying still today, it's one of the most honorable jobs being captain on a ship. But I saw too many frustrated, very good officers who could not express themselves and change the system. Because you're not changing an armed forces system, and probably you should not change it because there needs to be these rules and an armed forces has to work in a certain way. And a company which is in competition has to work in a totally different way.
You have to have the best talents, the best minds with you because otherwise they are with the competition and then they work against you, so this is what you have to create. And as a first thing, and this is nevertheless something I learned in the Navy walk the talk. You're in the front with your people, when you lead people, you're with them, if you're a leader in a sales unit, you will have to be with them with the client, back them support and show them how it works.
Later on, they have to work on their own. But if you're not able to do that, you should not be the leader of that squad of the team, and so on. And this is equal in sales where it's very easy and clear to understand, but also in IT in operations, and then other things. And this is one of the topics. The second thing is you have to be fast, because this trust, which is given to you at the beginning is just a short period of time. In this period of time, you have to walk the talk, you have to create results, then people will trust then people will change their minds and say, okay, this person I followed this company I follow here, I'm right here can bring a big piece of my know how and of my life to life.
Felicia Shakiba: I think that was a really clear distinction between maybe culture and business culture or any culture that needs cross functional collaboration. And like you said, innovation, speaking up the ability to feel like they can speak up.
What were some of the differences between the company that you had just acquired, and the company you have at Experian? What were some of the major differences that you saw? And how did you approach those specifically?
Jochen Werne: One of the major differences was probably the local culture. There's also one big say I think we had it before strategy global, business is local. And it's always difficult not difficult, but I think you have to know it if an international company is entering into a new market is trying to approach now the US way in Germany.
Big question mark there.
Jochen Werne (19:47): I mean the other way around, I mean, great German company as you know, Mercedes, for example, they acquired a certain point Chrysler and said we show how to create cars and it failed. And Mercedes said there was not the right way to not to approach how we do it. And so this adaption is very important. And Experian has this culture, Experian a European company at the FTSE was the headquarters in Dublin. And so in so many different countries and so many international people, this is something which is really the DNA of Experian. Now, the acquired companies were deep rooted German local companies, we have to say, and therefore the culture was also deep rooted German, and in this manner, and proud of the market, which they created in these days, and from scratch, and so on. Now, comparing these two cultures of an international globally acting player with international rules in a global group together, with grown up German companies, with their own rules, and Germans are very considered as German.
We are proud of our rules and we obey rules. This is such a cultural thing, which we always think letting go our rules and go to our rules might sometimes be a little bit a mindset change also for us.
So this is something would happen, so bringing all these things together, convincing that being in a big group, with all the new rules- especially on security, IT security, safety of our system, safety of our data, and so on in this big manner has an advantage because it's safe and secure, it has a disadvantage, because you have to put more work into it. So logging in, takes a little longer updating every for some people failed every day, their systems to be aware of the newest anti-fraud software, and so on and so on is a little bit hassle, but it is necessary, and step-by-step, you have to convince people that this is good that this is different, but it makes sense. So if you know something, which seemed to be easier, but you're not aware of the dangers, which are in the world now, then it needs to live with a conviction and the time to overlap them. But all this is possible.
How did you convince this, I guess, local culture to adapt? And I think that one thing to point out was that you were also aware that your mindshift might need coaxing, and how do we adapt? How do we look at what they're doing? And there was a time when I was putting together the performance management strategy for a global business. And I had to work with all their subsidiaries and I had to figure out well, how do we create this one for all strategy around performance without breaking the subcultures locally? Like where could we make room for people to really do their own thing? Was that your experience or did you say that 'No, everything has to be meshed together'? What did that approach look like for you and was it successful? Is it successful today?
Jochen Werne: Let me bring up two things prior to, I've also been new to Experian. So I haven't inhalade this wonderful culture over a long time. I went for my interviews, and I already saw on interviews, there's something different in this company, something I really appreciate. I can many, many interviews, many different people and I started to really admire this company in the way how the people were open, mindful and very open to support and to help. This gave me as a first step, my starting experience, something where I said, 'Oh, now we have to stand in front of a lot of people in the DACH market, and convince them of Experian, which you also just got to know firstly'.
Secondly, you have to have this conviction, otherwise it doesn't work. The second thing is you need also support. So speaking about myself, I had a great support from my boss was the CEO of EMEA and APAC region, Malin Holmberg, and she was just fantastic in every single step supported me. Then from EMAP, also our Chief People Officer, Emma Nola, she helped me and we are in a CPO podcast here, so I'm not the professional.
Felicia Shakiba: That's great to hear that you've been collaborating with your CPO. That's good news.
Jochen Werne (24:16): Not only that, all these transformational topics- they challenge it before me and they knew how difficult it is and I absolutely admire how they did it, how they prepared the crown, that now when a new CEO came in this CEO at the chance to change things to bring it to life, what they prepared. And then the big support in this time to bring things forward to find your way also, and then your organization to get the support from all different functions where a big matrix organization. And this was really something which frees your back and which gives you so much of support and have conviction on what you're doing and how you can do it. So you can really put the measures in, and you never had fights or anything like that really to say you see, without words, because they touched me a little bit emotionally because it was the case.
And now that the next job is, as I said, if you could, Armed forces structure- your job is getting this market now to life and to make it an Experian market and not our company market.
And to make people think, at Experian. And I think we are there and there we are on the way, but on a perfect path and I would say most all, this is always a big word and most of people are now in the Experian path in the Experian family and feel, homier. And this is, I think, a very important achievement, which the whole team did. And I was lucky enough to have the support and you need support. Otherwise, we will not make it in a group that big group less we are.
Felicia Shakiba: Well, I definitely think that this type of work takes time and doing it there is a challenge in doing it too quickly. Or even doing it too slowly, bringing in other cultures of the business and there's a lot of resistance and doing things differently. And I think that leveraging your teammates, your fellow executive team members, walking the talk, having your own self awareness, thinking about mindset, and bringing everyone together under one roof are all incredible feats. And so thank you so much for sharing your story. It's fascinating to hear how every company can approach things differently, but also understand and see the themes that work. It's just lovely hearing your story. So thank you so much for being here today.
Jochen Werne: Many thanks, Felicia for inviting me.
Felicia Shakiba: That's Jochen Werne, CEO of Experian DACH, overseeing Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
