Juliet Huck: That means that when you're a persuasive strategist, you have to understand how people not only think but how they feel. And being a persuasion strategist in the legal world and having to work with lawyers on how to explain really complicated stories to jurors, and, and get them to understand and believe you, you know, it's a very interesting process on how we, as human beings, actually process information and make decisions.
One of the things I always say is that it's really about common-sense values.
And, when I say I'm in the human business, I think HR is- isn't that human... starts off, right. It's all about people how they think their experiences, and you know, especially just things that we have in common that we don't stop a lot of times to look at and think about. And so I think it's really important that, that if you need something from anybody else, you have to stop and look at them first. And last, my golden rule is get out of your own shoes and get in the real shoes, of your decision maker.
Felicia Shakiba: I agree with that. I mean, I think it's really hard to build trust without getting to know who you're talking to. But with that said, much of your work has been displayed in the courtroom, where you've helped witnesses tell their stories and lawyers summarize entire trials in hopes of persuading juries.
What are the critical elements that you recommend to anyone telling a story on how to build trust with and ultimately persuade their audience?
Juliet Huck: Well, I've read a book called The Equation of Persuasion, and one of the first things I do talk about is, who was your decision maker?
If you don't look at the first part of the formula, about building trust, the ability to relate and getting to know who you're talking to, it's a huge misstep because you come in about your own story.
And as most of us know and listen to somebody else's story for a good hour- is always difficult to do, you need some kind of connection, the ability to relate so, I would say that you know, the first part of my formulas is about relationship and creating relationship.
And how do you do that? Well, you find something you can relate to and build in the trust. And, so as I've worked through multiple, multiple cases, I've seen it, this formula work in multiple arenas. HR is a perfect example. I've seen it with people that come to me, I had a group of chiropractors that came to meet on how to get more people to understand chiropractic and forensic accountants on how to can they explain very complicated pieces of information to people that don't have any background in math?
And I always start with who are you talking to? Who is your audience?
What do you know about them? And it's really important for me to say, look, we have to stop. And especially when you look at a jury pool, you know, you've got 12 people, very different backgrounds, but you'll find similarities.
It could be in the town they live in; it could be that they, five of them have children could be that three of them are grandmothers or grandparents. So you have to find some common denominators.
And then I'm a huge believer in retention and visual persuasion, trying to connect with each other visually.
And this is where I think you know, social media, TikTok more than anything else has really come to a place where we want to feel happy. So we go someplace that visually makes us happy, which brings happiness and I find TikTok to be extremely persuasive because it, it connects with people, relates to people, each other we it's a vehicle for us to relate to each other, connect with each other.
So how does one do that in a corporate setting, or legal setting is something I've been fascinated with even though my background has been advertising and graphic design, graphic design still in advertising, you have to relate you have to sell a product. How do you do that? You have to get to know your audience.
And so, we have also different levels of audience, let's say generational you know, specifically, perfect example for setting in a corporate setting. You're going to have some Boomers to now Gen-Z's right. So you get to that, right. So you get to that place where how do you get these generations to mix when they're very specific traits for each generation on what we've, we've all gone through?
So it's a formula that you have to take step-by-step looking at who's in front of you? How do you relate to them? How do you build trust with them? And how do they retain your information in order to move forward?
Felicia Shakiba: I'm so glad you brought up the multi-generational workforce that is here but will be likely more intense as we move forward.
Specifically speaking, how do we relate to all of those different generations simultaneously? I mean, some leaders are in organizations, and they're talking about transformational change, for example, or different leadership or big changes in the business, you know, how do we as leaders build that trust, and ultimately influence the business across all these different backgrounds?
Juliet Huck (07:31): Well, it's not, if you really look at it, a corporation's not really that different than a jury, you just have 12 compared to 12,000, right, or 1,200. So you have to find those common denominators. So when you're looking at, let's say, leadership, that's still in the Baby Boomer era, which I will age myself and tell you I'm there.
There are specific traits, like how our attention spans are, how our interests look. And then you go to Gen-X, which is right behind the Baby Boomers, and you have to look at some general characteristics.
And there's all kinds of things you can find like statistics on generational likenesses and commonalities, you know. And then you've got your Millennials who just know nothing but being on their phone, and then now you've got Gen-Z, who's kind of like- likes to be a little more separated.
So you have to look, you can look at some common denominators, in all four of those categories that we're sitting in right now in the corporate world, our business world or even in the courtroom, you're gonna find things that connect.
And so that's why I go back to common sense values, trust, honesty, there's a whole slew of words that I bring with my little box of words with me when I work with my clients, because there are certain things, we all know. We know when someone's lying. We know when someone's cheating where there's very specifics, common words we can all connect to.
So how do we take those and then wrap those together and string those together almost in a way that we can all talk as one unit and that's to me why you get really powerful corporations like Microsoft, Apple, places like this that have- are listening to the young people how they work, well, how they want to work, what's not working for them, but still having structure which the Baby Boomer age is only known structure.
So it's a weaving together of common interests- but you have to know them first, you can't just start weaving together interests you want to do - you have to go back and find out from your people, what is it you want? How do they want to do it? And I think some companies are doing that really well, right now, especially after the pandemic.
I think it's been; you know, some are insisting we go back to the office, and others are trying to find a hybrid.
And I think, eventually, it's going to weigh out that there'll be a hybrid, because that's how a younger generation how specifically kids coming out of COVID, that were in school, that didn't sit in school that didn't have structure are only going to be able to know how to work.
So how do we, how do we weave that together?
Where might leaders fall short, in building trust with their teams, and colleagues? And then how might they bounce back from perhaps losing trust? And you alluded to it earlier, where perhaps leaders might not get to know people or their, their employees, as well as they should prior to making a big move? Where else might they fall short?
Juliet Huck: Well, being a small business owner, I learned a lot, I will tell you that, you know, I've had my own business for over 25 years. And at one point time was the younger business owner. Now I'm the older business owner.
So I went through that generational change, almost like on a spectrum. At one point time, especially with clients and I, I think part of is just authenticity, it's being authentic, delivering what you say you're going to deliver on from a standpoint of leadership.
And I say leadership of do what you say, say what you're gonna do. Be honest with who you're talking with, again, very common sense, general principles that I'm hoping most of us have learned.
You know, I think that the spectrum is or the pendulum swung a little bit here and there at times, but in the general sense, I think what happens when, when they fall short is that it's building trust, and trust is earned trust is never ever given.
And I know some people that kind of laughs like, wow, you know, you trust until you can't. And then there's the other side of that coin that says, I don't trust anybody until I find out I can, right?
So younger generation, and I find this all the time- fact checkers, big time, fast. So you better know what you're talking about and be authentic.
Because in that phone, probably by- why you're in a conversation, they're fact checking you as you speak, right? That's because they don't trust. When they start to learn to trust, which takes a little bit more time, I think these days because we do have the internet to fact check our doctor, our lawyer, our accountant, you know, is that - if we don't believe them, the first place we go is the internet.
Somehow, we learned to trust the internet before our doctor, which is so wild to me. But I just think that there's, there's ways that you just have to build that relationship and get to know them personally, professionally. I know people say don't mix personal and business together, but I think there's a line.
But I do think you have to understand their interests, you have to understand their outside interests. Are they swimmers? Are they golfers? Are they knitters, are they you know what, what makes them happy?
And I think some leaders can fall short when alienation occurs. And alienation to me occurs when it's only just about the person who's the decision maker. Because alienation, when you can really bring things together, that's because someone's backed down. That's because someone says hey, what's your idea, not my way or the highway.
And so, you know, when that happens, you have to really look at yourself. That's my little book, 50 Ways to get Your Way.
It's the how to look at yourself to persuade others, not always looking at the other person, what you can get from them. And that's a bit of a hard exercise sometimes.
It sounds like, you have to almost give and learn before you ask for anything in return, like wanting someone to go in a specific direction and persuade someone else to do something.
Juliet Huck: Right. You have to do your homework. I mean, you can't just assume to walk in and not meet somebody for the first time and say, I want to do this, this, this and this. The person's sitting there like, I don't even know what you're talking about. Or, I hired you to do this, right? And I want to do this, this, this and I want to add this on to you.
And then you're like, wait a minute, you realize I'm already doing this, this and this. So it's stopping for a moment and finding out, Hey, how is, how is your work life balance? How was your...?
You know, work life balance in my generation, that wasn't even a term.
There was still in my generation, not a term. And I'm starting to like it. I'm actually enjoying the fact that I have a little bit of a balance and I never knew that could even be possible that I'd be happier with work life balance, because I was always just blood, sweat and tears for clients and work and it was nice to have a sudden realize you were still appreciated and still have a work life balance.
So you know, I had staff where they would rather have time off that would be valuable to them and other staff, they would rather have money. So what I always realized is everybody has a different currency. Currency is not always money. Currency is time, currency is a trip, currency is, you know, just accolade.
There are different currencies for different people. And so what is their currency? And I learned a lot of great things about that on when I had my company because no matter if I gave everybody a raise, there was some people were still very unhappy. And so I had to come back and find out, okay, this person would rather have time off with their family, and this person over here would rather have money to travel. So you have to, again...
...it all goes back to getting to know your decision maker, and the people that you need them to give you what you need, you have to do your homework on their age, their education, their political beliefs... if they have a religious belief or not, if they have, you know, what, what makes them tick.
And if you find that thing that ticks then I always say persuasion is not a call to action, it's a directed action.
The only way you can direct somebody in a place you want them to go is if they can relate to what you're talking to.
And if they can't relate, then that's why we have so it's almost I don't wanna get too political, but we have a divided country because we can't relate to certain things. And all of a sudden, feels divisive, because we're not able to sit down and try to, you know, we're not relating, so people just shut off instead of really trying to sit down and get to know, but when I have really in-depth serious conversations with others, they're like, Wow, okay, I never realized that.
And then they can easily start liking you, trusting you, building relationship, boom, then you start to be able to connect with them and persuade them that you may need help, or you may need money, or you need them to do a better job because you now understand who they are.
And you've been part of enormous cases, with lawyers in the courtroom. Between the lawyers who nail it, and those who don't, what's the difference there? Perhaps they relate more than the rest? Or how do you see it play out in the courtroom?
Juliet Huck (17:08): Well, that's a broad question, but I'll try to answer that, because it happens in 1000 different ways. I've seen lawyers really tick off jurors, like just offend them. And you'll see in the verdict. I've also seen lawyers that jurors love, but they just didn't think the facts were there. So that's why human nature is so fascinating to me, because we can try and predict and we can do polls, and we can do all these things all day long.
But it really has to come down to, do you have something people believe in? That's the formula. Have you built a relationship with them? Do they trust you? Have you visually given them something that they can actually hang their hat on and believe, and then you have to empower them.
You have to empower them in a way that allows them to make a decision they feel good about, you know, it's that old saying, I don't know if you're probably too young for this commercial, but it was like, We don't want just want a client, we want to educate a client. They want you to understand why buying a good suit was a good thing to do.
And that was such a persuasive statement, because it was like they want to take the time with you. And they want you to understand why because when you do, it's kind of like a no brainer.
I mean, I, I go back to Walt Disney being one of my most influential, I think, persuasive people ever in the history of existence. And some people would probably disagree with me on this. But here's a man and a fictitious mouse, right.
And that entrance fee to Disney has never reduced even during the pandemic, it has only gone up the entrance fee. From the early 50s. Like, what does that tell us? That tells us that we are so emotionally connected to something that makes us feel good, we'll be persuaded to do anything. We'll, we'll pay $200 to get into a park. And we're very sad if it's sold out and we can't get it.
That is connected us emotionally then you get in and then there's this like array of visual persuasion to buy this and feel good over here and music over there. And how does this work with our psyche and our ability of something we've known since we were little kids, right?
It really got to us as we were children and made us feel good and happy that you will pay that money you will be persuaded to want to show up no matter if the parks full or not.
So, I've just always look back at Disney as a very interesting example of how when you really connect with people emotionally, and again, why I feel like our country is somewhat divided because you have people that are very emotional, and very emotionally attached to certain subject matters.
But in a corporate setting, it's not always about emotion. It's about profit. It's about getting projects done and being successful, but yet you can't do it without some kind of emotional component because if people don't care, it's never going to happen, and you got to get them to care. And that's where the formula persuasion, I think comes in.
Finally, how do you measure the success of your efforts to build trust? And what metrics might you use to track progress over time?
Juliet Huck: When you get what you need is the first answer. When you, when you really get something, you need from someone, that is obviously success, right? To me, you also have to get it with honor, you have to get it with good intentions, you have to get it with the right emotion behind it. But to measure it is really just about to me the success of people being happy.
People that come to work, happy people that are happy with their team, people are happy with their boss, people that trust each other, it just makes a world of difference. And I think we saw that with the exchange of Twitter.
I definitely think that we saw that, you know, there was a camaraderie, a grouping there.
And then when that came in and got disrupted, in a different business model, different mindset, that was a very shocking thing not to continue that same emotional, you know, thread throughout Twitter, and you do have to consider that there will be someone who's going to come in and put the hammer down and say This is the way it is. And some people will follow that.
And then there'll be some people that just absolutely can't connect with that. And so you can persuade those to stay and others, you absolutely can't. So it's all about that relationship connection, getting out of your own shoes, get into the shoes of that decision maker and building the trust.
Felicia Shakiba: And similarly, in organizations, we use employee engagement surveys, and as HR Business Partners, we connect with the business as well as we can to get the qualitative context of things.
For the leaders that don't use employee engagement surveys, or maybe don't leverage their HR Business Partners as well, what does that look like when things are going off the path?
Juliet Huck (22:01): When you feel like something's going off the path, which I've seen that happen in jurors before, you have to get back on track of building the trust. I go back to the 2016 election, I could have told you the 2016 election, there was a huge piece that was missing for Hillary Clinton, unfortunately, and that was trust.
She had a wobbly, a wobbly place. And Donald Trump had all four of them in a very unique wild way, and connected enough people, even people that would not probably vote again today, connected with the time, they had some to relate to.
And so, I think you have to look at the formula a little bit and say, Okay, is it balanced? And I can't remember ever this happening when I was employed by other people that I walk in? And if someone asks, Are you happy? Are you happy in this job? What is it that you could could use more of? Now, I can't promise you the world, but let's put a plan together as to what makes you really want to succeed here. I mean, not a lot of people have that conversation with their employees,. It's, Got to get it done- here's what's required- this is what I need.
And I know there's a lot of people sit back, well, why do we have to this for a motion and this and this, because that's what matters to different generations.
[The] younger generation needs that if you really want to employ the the millennials, you got to get into what makes them happy. And if you don't know what that is, then how can you ever deliver that?
So I think not necessarily always into having to have a survey, perhaps. But what if you just sat down with your employer and just said, are 10 of them? What makes you happy? Let's just put it on the board, you know. And then these are things that make you unhappy.
OK, let's talk about. I can't deliver every one of these things you're talking about, but we can find a way to make this somewhat in your range, right? And then give them a range, not so black and white.
So the survey thing I think is I think is good, but I think, I think a lot of surveys get too heavy sometimes instead of just asking the straight up question, what do you need to be happy? What do you need to succeed? What is it you need to, to make sure that your time with us and our investment in you and your investment in us so that they feel balanced that they feel as if they actually matter?
And I feel that same way with jurors, I feel like jurors want to know they're empowered, and their decision is going to matter? Because otherwise they're just like, it's almost like voting. Why vote?
My decision is not going to matter. It matters. So I think the measurement of that is sometimes just simple questions. Very simple, handful of questions.
Felicia Shakiba: Thank you so much. I want to give you the opportunity to share anything that we haven't chatted about yet. Is there anything else that's on your mind?
Juliet Huck: I'm a little bit passionate right now on the mental wellness of people. And I always feel like the mental and the emotional go together. So it's kind of an interesting subject we're talking about from a corporate perspective as well. I think the key component right now is you know, we got to find some compassion and empathy.
I think if we can all do that, from the courtroom to the boardroom, I think we'd be will be a much better place and I, I do believe it's happening, I just think younger generations bring it more for which I, which I'm actually pretty excited about. So I really appreciate you having me here today, Felicia, for sure.
Felicia Shakiba: Thank you so much Juliet. This has been awesome. That's Juliet, CEO and founder of the hub group, and podcast host of Trial Trauma Transformation.
